Board rejects YMCA housing plan
By RODNEY MINOR, The Leader-HeraldArticle Photos
Fact Box
How they votedThe following Zoning Board of Appeals members disagreed with the classification of the YMCA plan as a hotel:
• Garrison Seelow
• Arthur Simonds
• Jeffrey Ashe
• David Huckans
The following Zoning Board of Appeals members agreed with the classification:
• Karen Smith
• John Callahan
The majority of the Zoning Board of Appeals voted that Building Inspector D. Robert Robbins made an error when he determined the proposed use of the second floor of the YMCA at 19 E. Fulton St. put it under the definition of a hotel in the zoning ordinance.
The board’s decision means expanding the YMCA residential facility would violate existing zoning law.
Steve Serge, director of the YMCA, said the club will consider taking legal action over the matter.
In March, the Planning Board determined the Zoning Board of Appeals had to review Robbins’ zoning ordinance interpretation and classification.
The state-funded $3.5 million YMCA project would add 30 beds for the low-income residential program in the building, bringing the total number of beds to 53. The single beds in the facility cost $70 a week.
Concerned downtown business owners and city residents have said homeless people from outside the area would be brought in when the facility expands, negatively affecting the quality of life in the city.
Board members Garrison Seelow, Arthur Simonds, Jeffrey Ashe and David Huckans voted that Robbins’ decision was incorrect. Chairwoman Karen Smith and John Callahan voted in favor of Robbins’ interpretation.
Robbins said there is no exact definition in the zoning ordinance for what the YMCA is proposing. He went through the zoning code, explaining why he felt the hotel classification was the best choice for the proposed facility.
The YMCA proposal consists of second-floor sleeping rooms with an accessory kitchen, lounge area and communal bathrooms.
It sounds similar to a rooming house, but there are too many single sleeping rooms in the YMCA for it to be listed as that under the zoning ordinance, Robbins said. A motel only deals with transient occupants, which is not always the case with the YMCA. That left hotel as the best definition, he said.
“You may or may not like this definition of a hotel. Quite frankly, I feel it leaves a lot to be desired,” Robbins said. “But it is what we have to work with, according to this ordinance.”
Huckans said Robbins did the best he could with the ordinance, but had concerns about what was meant by hotel when the definition was created.
“I think common-sense wise ... based on when this was put into the zoning law, this is clearly not a hotel,” he said.
Robbins said the zoning laws for the city were first established in 1921. He was not certain exactly when the definition for hotel was created.
After the meeting, Serge said he was disappointed by how the board conducted its work. The board got caught up in trying to guess what was intended when the zoning ordinance was created, he said, rather than base its work on facts.
Board members noted the zoning ordinance was vague in places and did not necessarily say whether certain things were allowed under the definition of hotel.
City Attorney John Clo, who sat in on the meeting and was apparently advising the board, said the board did not need to concern itself with defining a hotel. All the board needed to do was determine whether Robbins made the correct interpretation under the zoning ordinance as it is written, he said.
Ashe said to go by intent, the board would need to look up information it did not have available at the meeting. Instead, Ashe said the operational uses of the proposed YMCA expansion, in his opinion, are not consistent with the operations of a hotel.
After the meeting, Ashe declined to comment on what Robbins’ interpretation should have been. He said it would not be appropriate for him to comment on any business the board conducts outside of a public session.
Simonds said the YMCA proposal appears similar to housing for people with substance abuse and behavioral issues, he said.
During the public comment portion of the meeting, downtown businesswoman Susan Casey, an opponent of the YMCA plan, listed a number of the services the YMCA would provide, such as life-skills training and a food pantry reference.
No definition in the city zoning ordinance fits this, she said. The services it provides would place it beyond the definition of a hotel.
Serge said the YMCA is proud of the services it provides to its residents. Many of the on-site services offered, such as a laundry service and an exercise area, hotels do offer, he said.
At one point, Serge held up a jar he claimed was filled with almost $1,500 in receipts residents of the YMCA had received after making purchases from downtown businesses in the past month. It was proof, he said, that the YMCA residents added to businesses in the community.
After the meeting, Serge said he looks forward to receiving the minutes and the board’s official explanation in writing. When that information is reviewed, the YMCA will consider its options, he said.
“We have implemented a capital project on the basis of information [the city] provided to us,” Serge said. “Then they change the rules on us.”
The YMCA will move into its new facility on Harrison Street this summer, and work was intended to start on the East Fulton Street building when that happened.
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StopTheFraud
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05-08-08 2:55 PM
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I don't know where to begin. First off, kudos goes to the Board for rejecting the plan. Secondly, everyone can hide behind different guises, but the main point is they don't want this element loitering - period. As part of my work, I assess situations such as this and I can tell you, it would not benefit Gloversville. The problem is everyone wants to trump with emotion. Just always bring yourself back to this question. "What benefit will bringing these people into the community create?". ' Freedom ' in his 11:22 post, "Prejudice against the poor and disabled". Where do you live Freedom? I'm guessing it's not near the Y (and don't just say it is to prove a point please). "GibsonGirl"...you need to just stop. "Fulton County has the opportunity to help people get off the streets and re-establish their lives." Who's planning on helping the taxpayer who already fronts the bill for Freedom's friend who is on SSI (yeah I know it comes from the Federal
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Pittsthe3rd
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05-08-08 2:25 PM
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Downtown gville is "a beautiful business district with culture and an eclectic feel"?? Hey morningstar, whatever youre on id like some!
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MrRoboto
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05-08-08 2:11 PM
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Reading FREEDOM's post, I think I just felt my taxes go up.
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FREEDOM
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05-08-08 2:00 PM
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Perhaps you could build a wall around them to keep them in so they cant shop in your stores or enjoy the scenic view of empty store fronts or maybe a tent city in the rock wood forest.The YMCA is a good place for them to live Most of them cant afford a car so downtown would be good for them access to the buses and what few stores that are available you seem to make these people out to be something to be discarded
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itsjustme
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05-08-08 1:55 PM
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No your high prices and rude attitudes keep everyone away.. it just much easier cheaper and nicer to shop elsewhere.. like schenectady or albany!... or heres a point.. maybe everyone needs to travel to albany to find work cause they cant find any around here.. and while they are there they do their shopping there!
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MrRoboto
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05-08-08 1:47 PM
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Now, as to FREEDOM and JtownBob's assertions that this is anti-poor: Far from it. Dave, if anyone, is a bleeding heart. And I have nothing but compassion for these people. But the reality is, this would concentrate a population that very likely has special needs--medically and otherwise--in a small area of one community. And, it could have a very adverse impact on that community efforts to revitalize a failing business district. Clearly, a just society tries to help its least members. But that doesn't mean putting them all downtown, either. The Zoning Board has spoken here, and sees a number of problems. Perhaps those who advocate so forcefully for this group could present a new plan.
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ConervativeandProud
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05-08-08 1:45 PM
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Typical of the "feel good" left. Say something nice and you will feel better. But that doesnt help the businesses. What about the owners downtown who get up early every morning, get to their business, unlock their doors only to find non customers loitering outside their doors, keeping the paying customers away. Sounds cold, but it is the truth and we all know it!!!! You lefties can sit back and spew all your do gooder rhetoric, but there are people trying to make a living there. FREEDOM You obviously have never owned a business and had the government allow these folks to ruin your business. I have. It happened to me. Downtown Gloversville can comeback. But it wont as long as you continue this practice of allowing social service programs to ruin it.
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MrRoboto
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05-08-08 1:43 PM
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It pains me to be in agreement with Dave here, but he is right. We have zoning laws, and Zoning Boards, for a reason. While I am very much a libertarian, we have to give in to zoning requirements to keep civilization civilized. Otherwise, you end up with factories in residential neighborhoods, and daycare centers in industrial brownfields. In this instance, one property is looking to become a very-high-occupancy building. This would have profound impacts on a small geographic area--including potentially boosting traffic beyond what the infrastructure can handle.
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DaveGibson
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05-08-08 1:33 PM
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Freedom: "Far from dead" is not the same as "doing well". My businesses did fine until last summer, when the price of gas spiked. You'll see many more businesses close, and not just in this area, but all around the country. When things are tough, like they are now, is precisely the time when you have to work the hardest. It's the time to make your business district the most appealing you can as you fight for a shrinking piece of the consumer spending pie. It's my opinion that expanding the YMCA's dormitory is counterproductive to that. Let's build it next to your house, Freedom. Or perhaps in Johnstown, next to JtownBob, or next to the business of itsjustme.
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FREEDOM
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05-08-08 1:32 PM
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They are human beings Dave. They shouldn't be dumped anywhere.
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FREEDOM
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05-08-08 1:29 PM
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If you dont have a problem with people themselves As dave Gibson says "let's Dump them in Daves neighborhood nice way to put it Dave? You have a nice agenda Dave.
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morningstar
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05-08-08 1:19 PM
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I tend to agree with DaveGibson and MrRoboto here. By rejecting the plan, they are not saying they will deny any poor people a place to live. They are making a decision that supports their ongoing move toward improving what actually IS a beautiful business district with culture and an eclectic feel that you could never hope to find in a Walmart. By concentrating people in one area where they have worked hard to make many improvements, they would be counterproductive.
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FREEDOM
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05-08-08 1:12 PM
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All people have problems you dont have to live a the ymca to be a criminal or a drug addict or recovering addict. Roboto do you know any of these people that live there, Im curious to know how you know about thier promblems or are you just assuming and Dave if down town g'ville is doing so well why are you leaving?
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downtownmerchant
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05-08-08 1:09 PM
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wow. some of these posts are upsetting. obviously i am a merchant downtown. we are by no means wealthy. we work hard, keep our store clean, my sidewalks swept. we are good citizens and responsible people. its what i expect from my kids, its what i expect from my neighbors and friends. some of you out there think that downtown is a lost cause and dont see (or care about) the ramifications of a project like this. i do. does that make me a hatemonger? i believe all responsible, good people willing to work deserve help when they need it. i am also not ashamed to believe that it is a bad idea to place an excess of social services in the proximity of our downtown...where some day i hope and believe will "come back". try to look at both sides and understand that some of us are trying to eek out a living downtown and it is hurtful to hear how residents of my community don't want a viable downtown.
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MrRoboto
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05-08-08 1:01 PM
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Incidentally, casting this as merely about "the poor" is a bit dishonest. Many of the folks living in the YMCA have more problems than just their income tier.
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MrRoboto
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05-08-08 12:59 PM
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Now, Dave, I'm quite sure that Johnstown's Zoning Board would be no more open to this than Gloversville's.
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DaveGibson
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05-08-08 12:55 PM
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Downtown is Gloversville's only business district. It is far, far from dead, with over 150 active businesses downtown. It employs far more people than a Super Walmart ever will, at higher wages. It is also Gloversville's main source of sales tax revenue. I am against the Y's expansion, not their programs. Putting a dormitory (that's what it is) of 53 of their residents amounts to dumping them all in one place. Let's spread it out. How about converting the YMCA in Johnstown? The residents would be closer to needed services. Or how about the big new facility they're building? Or how about buying homes in neighborhoods all around the county, like Lexington does? Focusing everything on downtown Gloversville would, indeed, make it a place where no one ever goes, creating a hardship for the businesses located here.
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FREEDOM
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05-08-08 12:16 PM
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I have a disabled friend who collects SSI a wopping 660 dollars amonth he is not a criminal and he works when he able. Where is this man going to find affordable housing?Down town gloversville is dead and its time it was buried which will come with the walmart supercenter arrives give these people a chance by the way he is also a viet nam vet.Are we still treating these men like dirt.
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itsjustme
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05-08-08 11:57 AM
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Where do you people expect these people to live.. I think it is a great idea.. Get over it Gloversville's Main St is never going to look good! No one wants to open up a shop there nor actually shop there! What do you do with all the "poor" people who hang out on main st in gville all day long.. no one has said anything about them!
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GibsonGirl
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05-08-08 11:56 AM
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When did Gloversville become suburbia? Main street hasn't been a main street in years! It's pretty disgusting when society wants to turn it's back on the poor because of their own comfort and unwillingness to face poverty. God forbid you might see it and have to do something to fix it. I have no more words...I think people against this are sick! Poverty is becoming a world wide epidemic and Fulton County has the opportunity to help people get off the streets and re-establish their lives, yet are dragging their feet because it might make some people uncomfortable. White collar and blue collar crimes are by far more prevalent and grotesque than the crimes of the poor. Ugh!!!
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Pittsthe3rd
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05-08-08 11:45 AM
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Where am I supposed to live now after I go all in on the Yanks this afternoon and they get beat?? This isnt fair
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ConervativeandProud
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05-08-08 11:43 AM
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Prejudice against the poor??? Are you kidding me?? How about this? Maybe they want Main Street to look like a Main Street. You know the kind I am talking about. Shops open, people walking safely around, not being bothered by folks just hanging around on the streets. Look at downtown Schenectady if you want an example of what not to put in a downtown business district. Good Job by the board!!!!!!!!!!!!
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JtownBob
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05-08-08 11:34 AM
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This is a thinly veiled attempt at the "not in my backyard" mentality trying to hide behind a facade of zoning impropriety. If this undertaking were to benefit Mrs.Caseys and other businesspeoples pocketbooks, Mr. Robbins definition would be fine. Look around Gloversville, there are folks that need to be given a chance, that need help. My guess is that G'ville will again find itself at the losing end of lawsuit.
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FREEDOM
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05-08-08 11:22 AM
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This sounds like the fix is in a handful of people are against it and they must have influence with the zoning board. Prejudice against the poor and disabled.
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