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Board rejects YMCA housing plan

By RODNEY MINOR, The Leader-Herald
POSTED: May 8, 2008

Article Photos


GLOVERSVILLE — Plans to expand the Fulton County YMCA residential facility on East Fulton Street will have to be put on hold, perhaps indefinitely.

The majority of the Zoning Board of Appeals voted that Building Inspector D. Robert Robbins made an error when he determined the proposed use of the second floor of the YMCA at 19 E. Fulton St. put it under the definition of a hotel in the zoning ordinance.

The board’s decision means expanding the YMCA residential facility would violate existing zoning law.

Steve Serge, director of the YMCA, said the club will consider taking legal action over the matter.

In March, the Planning Board determined the Zoning Board of Appeals had to review Robbins’ zoning ordinance interpretation and classification.

The state-funded $3.5 million YMCA project would add 30 beds for the low-income residential program in the building, bringing the total number of beds to 53. The single beds in the facility cost $70 a week.

Concerned downtown business owners and city residents have said homeless people from outside the area would be brought in when the facility expands, negatively affecting the quality of life in the city.

Board members Garrison Seelow, Arthur Simonds, Jeffrey Ashe and David Huckans voted that Robbins’ decision was incorrect. Chairwoman Karen Smith and John Callahan voted in favor of Robbins’ interpretation.

Robbins said there is no exact definition in the zoning ordinance for what the YMCA is proposing. He went through the zoning code, explaining why he felt the hotel classification was the best choice for the proposed facility.

The YMCA proposal consists of second-floor sleeping rooms with an accessory kitchen, lounge area and communal bathrooms.

It sounds similar to a rooming house, but there are too many single sleeping rooms in the YMCA for it to be listed as that under the zoning ordinance, Robbins said. A motel only deals with transient occupants, which is not always the case with the YMCA. That left hotel as the best definition, he said.

“You may or may not like this definition of a hotel. Quite frankly, I feel it leaves a lot to be desired,” Robbins said. “But it is what we have to work with, according to this ordinance.”

Huckans said Robbins did the best he could with the ordinance, but had concerns about what was meant by hotel when the definition was created.

“I think common-sense wise ... based on when this was put into the zoning law, this is clearly not a hotel,” he said.

Robbins said the zoning laws for the city were first established in 1921. He was not certain exactly when the definition for hotel was created.

After the meeting, Serge said he was disappointed by how the board conducted its work. The board got caught up in trying to guess what was intended when the zoning ordinance was created, he said, rather than base its work on facts.

Board members noted the zoning ordinance was vague in places and did not necessarily say whether certain things were allowed under the definition of hotel.

City Attorney John Clo, who sat in on the meeting and was apparently advising the board, said the board did not need to concern itself with defining a hotel. All the board needed to do was determine whether Robbins made the correct interpretation under the zoning ordinance as it is written, he said.

Ashe said to go by intent, the board would need to look up information it did not have available at the meeting. Instead, Ashe said the operational uses of the proposed YMCA expansion, in his opinion, are not consistent with the operations of a hotel.

After the meeting, Ashe declined to comment on what Robbins’ interpretation should have been. He said it would not be appropriate for him to comment on any business the board conducts outside of a public session.

Simonds said the YMCA proposal appears similar to housing for people with substance abuse and behavioral issues, he said.

During the public comment portion of the meeting, downtown businesswoman Susan Casey, an opponent of the YMCA plan, listed a number of the services the YMCA would provide, such as life-skills training and a food pantry reference.

No definition in the city zoning ordinance fits this, she said. The services it provides would place it beyond the definition of a hotel.

Serge said the YMCA is proud of the services it provides to its residents. Many of the on-site services offered, such as a laundry service and an exercise area, hotels do offer, he said.

At one point, Serge held up a jar he claimed was filled with almost $1,500 in receipts residents of the YMCA had received after making purchases from downtown businesses in the past month. It was proof, he said, that the YMCA residents added to businesses in the community.

After the meeting, Serge said he looks forward to receiving the minutes and the board’s official explanation in writing. When that information is reviewed, the YMCA will consider its options, he said.

“We have implemented a capital project on the basis of information [the city] provided to us,” Serge said. “Then they change the rules on us.”

The YMCA will move into its new facility on Harrison Street this summer, and work was intended to start on the East Fulton Street building when that happened.
Member Comments
View Comments: | 1-25 |26-49 | Post a comment
Oscar323
05-10-08 11:08 AM
Freedom is ignorant. these residents are cocaine users?!? i think if you take a close look at the "upper class" in good ol gville, you will see that most of them are the drug users.

Oscar323
05-10-08 11:05 AM
Gloversville as a whole is low income. The average salary, is about 23,000. downtown is nothing fantastic. there are what 3 stores there?! you never see people taking a nice walk downtown, shopping in the many stores, such as saratoga. it will never happen. why not face reality, the city NEEDS low income housing. you are saying the people of gloversville do not matter. why not give them a chance to get on their feet? we all know people who have just needed a little help, or have needed some ourselves. you people that put the ymca project and its residents down make me sick. talk about living in glass houses.

BornRaised
05-09-08 7:06 PM
I wish we could give the 3.5 Million to Susan Casey to Rehab the 2 guys buildings. If this ever happened we would not be talking about half the issues in these posts. Tax payer funded Low income housing is short sided economics. G-ville needs a long term plan for downtown and low income housing is not it.

melissa16361
05-09-08 10:00 AM
If we are so concerned about how our tax dollars are spent on helping these people, why don't we speak up about spending the money more efficiently? I'm not saying to spend the money on something else completely, but rather to take the money that is going to pre-existing programs, and ask that it be used to help provide more services to help them gain the necessary skills to find a job, keep the job, and contribute back to the community.

I mentioned earlier that I work for a charitable organization. There have been many times when someone who has needed help from us in the past, has since got back on their feet, and then turned around and gave donations to us, so that we can help more people. The system can work, as long as there are people willing to put in the effort. There are always exceptions to the rule, but most people using the services of the YMCA genuinely need the help, and are looking to get back in the "game."

melissa16361
05-09-08 9:51 AM
stop the fraud: how can you generalize so horribly? Not everyone who uses the services at the YMCA are parasites. Someone mentioned earlier about being upset about the use of the word bigot to describe the working class. How about the generalization and assumption that all people at the YMCA don't contribute anything to the community? Most of the people there are down on their luck, and just need someone to help them get back on their feet. If you were hurt, or unable to work, you would look to your friends or family to help you out until you can get back to work, correct? That's all these people are looking for. Instead of putting them down, why don't we provide more services, maybe free classes that will help them develop and hone skills that will help them join the working class? If we can help them become productive members of society, rather than insisting that they stay where they are, because we don't want to be bothered with the effort it would take to help.

StopTheFraud
05-09-08 9:15 AM
A direct result for having to pay for all of these programs, including the YMCA Hotel. I'm also interested in why your friend is on SSI and not SSDisability (or does he not have 40 working quarters in because he went to war....and then obtains some sort of disability after he comes back. If everyone just asked themselves one simple question, topics like this wouldn't even be discussed. "Am I a host or a parasite." American Heritage Dictionary - par·a·site. 1) An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host. 2) One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return. 3) One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant. Sounds like YMCA's population to me. Also Freedom, don't chastise the ones who speak the truth or site the facts, if it was done in the past perhaps your friend and the YMCA'ers wouldn't be in the situation they are.

melissa16361
05-09-08 9:12 AM
I've been reading a lot of these posts, and I must say I'm very concerned. I am a taxpayer, and I've worked almost everyday of my life since the age of 17. That being said, I also work for a charitable organization that helps people in need. Those of you who say that there are people who abuse the system would be correct, but there are a lot more people who genuinely need the help. I've lost count of how many people have come to us looking for a place to stay. We've put them up in motels, hotels, and, yes, the YMCA. The YMCA is a great organization that is trying to help the people who need it. Why can't we help them figure out a way to do that, rather than finding any little thing to pick at, just because we don't want "their kind" downtown?

StopTheFraud
05-09-08 9:05 AM
Sorry everyone, I had to stop posting around 3:30 yesterday - I had to go to my second job. Freedom - you sound like a real nice guy - but I just want to visit your Thursday, 5:03 pm post. You say you asked your friend to stay with you. But he wishes to have his own place....of course he does...he's not paying for it. I think a lot of the ' posters ' are just fed up with the " Hand-Out " Mentality. Just like Mr. Roboto and ConservativeandProud...when is enough, enough. A couple of points you missed on with your posts: You failed to mention how your friend became disabled "after he got back (from the war)." I have a pretty good theory....I see it everyday, but you're not going to want to hear it. But even though his disability wasn't a result of the war, you're quick to mention his Purple Heart and his Silver Star....what about my Red Checking Account? Look for Post 2.

ADKMike
05-09-08 7:07 AM
Residence at the YMCA is described by Wikipedia as "hotel-like rooms". In the 40's and 50's there "were about 100,000 rooms at YMCA's, more than any hotel chain." The definition goes on to say that "by 2006 YMCA's with residences were relatively rare." I think the operative word is "with", does it seem slightly odd that Mr. Serge is willing to spend 3.5 million of the taxpayers money on a hotel-like residence that does not house residents under the same roof as the YMCA? I would have to say that Mr. Robbins was spot on in his definition of the zoning, further since the YMCA is defined as a hotel-like facility it would be useless to continue to waste money on a frivolous lawsuit. Time would be better spent on efforts to consolidate the YMCA residence under one roof.

MrRoboto
05-08-08 8:20 PM
FREEDOM: That dog just don't hunt.

Unfortunately, there is a correlation between the decisions people make in their lives and their socioeconomic status.

That's not to say that plenty of good people live below the poverty level, and plenty of dirtbags with six-figure incomes. But the preponderance of examples would bear out what others on here are asserting.

While we sympathize with your friend's plight, the higher-income earners, unlike your friend, aren't costing the taxpayers money.

As those footing the bill, the taxpayers have a right to assert some influence on where these individuals are located.

FREEDOM
05-08-08 6:21 PM
If the people that can afford the apartments in there they could be on coke they could afford it. will they be any complaining about that or is that okay because they have a good income Im assuming like every one assumes thats what willhappen at the ymca.

MrRoboto
05-08-08 6:09 PM
OK, FREEDOM, you lost me. Have the proposed bringing in cokeheads to the Estee Eyesore?

FREEDOM
05-08-08 6:06 PM
Whats going to happen when the old estee schoolgets filled up with the cocaine users and start wondering around downtown going to ask them to leave town?

MrRoboto
05-08-08 6:02 PM
Actually, a more optimal site would be a more "suburban" one, to abuse the term. Something outside the primary traffic zones downtown--as Dubois Gardens is.

There are neighborhoods in Gloversville that could be positively affected by the inclusion of new tenants, and areas that readily present themselves as sites to build facilities. And, at $3.5 million, a much better facility could be built than renovating a decrepit building in Gloversville's downtown.

MrRoboto
05-08-08 5:58 PM
FREEDOM, look, no one wants to see those who can't easily earn their way in life cast aside here. But I think the debate is over location.

Perhaps there is a more amenable site. Placing these folks right downtown is causing some concern, and for a number of reasons. I understand the impulse to see bigotry here, but I just kind of doubt it when you've got a coalition including guys like Dave "My Heart Bleeds 27 Shades of Red" Gibson arrayed against you.

Introducing a large population of even high-income residents to that specific lot would be problematic.

MrRoboto
05-08-08 5:55 PM
Hmmmm...FREEDOM's friend, who is the recipient of the largesse of the very people he's calling bigots, seems intent on biting the hand that quite literally feeds him.

Impressive!

FREEDOM
05-08-08 5:55 PM
How do you know these people will be wandering around the downtown streets you dont know what they will do they havnt moved in yet you do alot of assuming also these people pay taxes too. You are judging by a few tenants who got into some legal problems well so has the business district remember the shoe dept. and funeral parlor. You are also judging people that not residents yet. But you know they are going to be low life poor folks because thier income isnt to your standards my friend might be right?

FREEDOM
05-08-08 5:45 PM
I didn't call anyone a biggot my friend did

ConervativeandProud
05-08-08 5:42 PM
Becasue we dare speak the truth and yes sometimes the truth isn't always nice, we are called biggots and worse by the left.

When they are up against a logical and common sense comment that is based in fact not symbolism, the left ALWAYS turns to name calling. Why? Because they cannot come up with a logical and common sense answer that adequately refutes the comment. Rather than name call, tell us how having these 53 residents wandering around downtown will enhance the area. With additional spending of tax (my) dollars, shouldnt there be a justification for it? Are you say that the 53 people that will move in deserve more than the taxpayting public?

Are you saying they have more rights than us?

Please give us something credible to read. What are you saying?

MrRoboto
05-08-08 5:17 PM
Yes, FREEDOM, that's an inspired way to win this argument! Call the other side bigots.

Nothing will change their hearts and minds faster than that!

FREEDOM
05-08-08 5:03 PM
stop the fraud I did ask my friend to stay with me for free He wishes to have his own place. and for you that degrade these people because they are on SSI. This man has a purple heart and a silver star So called defending this country in Viet Nam. He became disabled after he got back and is limited what he can do but he tries to keep going'all he wants is a place he could call his own and you would deny him and others like him to have that chance. I showed him some of these comments. He said he wouldtnt live in a place that think thier better than anyone else bunch of biggots. I told him thier not all like that just the ones that dont get thier way.

MrRoboto
05-08-08 4:39 PM
StopTheFraud: I think you just flattened your opponents on that one.

Nicely said.

StopTheFraud
05-08-08 3:24 PM
Thanks Pitts. Often I think this "Whoa is me" and "Let's help everyone" {with someone else's dollar} mentality is a disease. Where in the world does everyone think this money is going to come from. The taxpayer isn't an endless resource. My goodness!!

Pittsthe3rd
05-08-08 3:17 PM
StoptheFraud, you are a small tank! Thanks for talking some sense on here

StopTheFraud
05-08-08 3:09 PM
Government. You know the same government that makes widgets and sells them for a profit. Freedom is also quick to note his friend's "whopping $660 a month...Where is this man going to find affordable housing?" If he is such a good friend Freedom, perhaps he can live with you. I'm going to paint a picture for you all - let's the bring the total number of low-income residential beds to 53. Who do you think is going to live there? Steve Serge wants you to believe it's going to be big spenders with a jar of receipts. I'm all but sure those receipts were bogus, but if they weren't, you'd probably see plenty of lotto, cigarette and intoxicant receipts. Remember, they are low-income recipients. I don't forsee them going to H&P, Castiglione's or Nethaway's....do you? WAKE UP GLOVERSVILLE, or you'll live up to your nickname....Grubersville. PS - Look at the benefits all that low-income housing did for Amsterdam....delicious!!

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